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In Reply to: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ripped off posted by Ron on August 28, 2001 at 10:35:02:
Sounds good.
One correction - I ran across "five" situations, not "a" situation.
For "Personal Financial Analyst", you should also stick to what you're best at - which in all likelihood does not include financial advising.
Regards--
: Chad,
: I think we had better agree to disagree. It sounds like you ran across a situation where perhaps the PFAs didn't render the soundest of advice...but then I have only heard one side of this. For a "network administrator", you should probably stick to what you are clearly best at.
: Best of luck to you.
: : If you had bothered to read, you would see that I am not "in the business". Meaning I have absolutely no stake in financial services. I am a network administrator. I was trying to help four different people, who sat down with four different PFAs from three different RVPs. I was able to help them. I am generalizing based on the experiences of myself and four other people, all from different hierarchies.
: : So your arguments are worthless. I am not serving a certain market. I'm not serving a market at all! One of the people I helped, as a friend, received a government grant to put a down payment on a home, and is paying less on payments and taxes (tax breaks considered) on a home than renting. None of these people make over 30K per year, with families, and one makes <17K a year, with a family. So it's not like I'm blinding myself to a certain market segment. I'm helping the very people you claim to help. I'm not an agent, or a salesman, or a lender. You keep coming back with this "sweeping generalization" argument, but how else can I respond when I've seen five people (including myself) offered garbage from four different agents from the same company?
: : As far as getting off the internet, I would recommend the same to you -- you're not allowed to post on the internet as is. I'm performing a service as I have to four people and eventually more. You are trying to justify your existence. Which is more noble?
:
: : : Chad,
: : : The differences in our opinions are primarily based on one item...and that is you portend that every PFA says essentially the same thing, that the RVPS all preach that our products are the best for every client, and that PFS is essentially a propaganda machine pushing overpriced products on unsophisticated clientele. The fact is that PFS does NOT teach us to tell people are products are the absolute best in the marketplace, or even the least expensive, for that matter. There are automobile companies that sell their cars, some of which are clearly not the very best value (see Ford) but they sell millions of them. Why? Because they serve a need where one exists. People do not buy Ford Tauruses because they are the best looking or most well built vehicles. They are serviceable cars that will last for a period of time and provide reasonably reliable transportation for a period of time. If the people had more money, they would certainly have more, and perhaps better, options. Well, some people don't have sterling credit. This might shock you, but not all people have the typically required minimum opening balance to get access to the mutual fund types you refer to. Some people have no financial discipline, either, and they have little prospect of developing any without a personal financial coach to help them along the way. THAT is where PFS is so imminently valuable. THOSE people need help too, but people like you have your head buried so far up your backside that they don't ever get out there to deal with people in middle-America. That is because you and your brethren are too busy trying to convince people who have substantial wealth and assets that you are such geniuses that they need you to manage their financial affairs. Maybe they do. I applaud your efforts in that area. But you are serving an entirely different market. If the typical PFS rep were trying to sell to people who are in the top 5% of the income earners in the country routinely, your arguments would be very valid. However, our clientele is typically made up of people who have little or no retirement savings, fairly modest incomes, way too much debt, and few resources to hire fiancial assistance. Our products were largely created to help people in those circumstances become debt free and financially independent. Are our products more expensive than some others? Yes, in some cases, they are. However, you so conveniently like to overlook that we don't leave their homes having left them with a bill in their hands for our consultation and ongoing help. They appreciate being to call us and get a human being, not voice mail jail with nice music in the background at one of the typical brokerage houses.
: : : You are fond of making sweeping generalizations that do not apply to the core of the argument, and THAT is where you fail. Focus on your clientele. Get off of the internet, quit slamming companies that are doing very well (Number one, in fact) and trying to assert that YOUR opinion should somehow outweigh Forbes and other such noteworthy and credible publications. We serve our niche market (which given its size, is not that small of a niche) VERY well. If not, we would be out of business and middle America would be forced to come to people like you, hat in hand, and get ready to bend over and grab their ankles.
: : : : My competition? Nah...they tried to screw me and so far I've showed 4 people, who were considering PFS, their alternatives. And I didn't say things like "PFS brainwashes you" or "it's a cult" or "they're evil." When desperate folks get desperate, they say "get a life" because there's really not much else left. I have helped more people than I believe PFS ever has, by showing the truth and letting the decide for themselves.
: : : : I sat down with these four people (2 friends, a coworker, and a younger family member) and showed the mechanics of mortgages and the manner in which they compound and front-load interest. I showed how biweekly payments work, and how 99% of a biweekly payment's acceleration is due to making an extra payment a year. I showed them how PFS's numbers, while technically correct on the loan offer, are misleading. I showed how the PFS loan attributes savings to things these people can do do their present mortgage, if it is in their best interest. I showed how interest rate matters -- imagine that -- and that the loans offers three of them were considering, were in fact far less beneficial than the mortgages they had already. Just because one loan has an advantage in one area, doesn't mean it won't lose out overall.
: : : : I showed them that investments could be placed in mutual funds, but no load index funds carry essentially the same risk and return as high-load high-commission funds they had been presented with. I also explained that one should not gamble their property tax money in mutual funds, especially in the short term, contrary to the PFS teachings.
: : : : I showed them how easy it was to get term insurance, -quality- term insurance, for much less than PFS. In one case, it was about half, in two cases, it was less than half, and one case didn't have any reason to have life insurance. PFS thought they needed it, but upon talking to trusted advisors with no conflict of interest, we determined it was certainly unecessary at this stage. Of course, the computer program doesn't know the difference.
: : : : PFS is what I call "one step forward, five steps back". Yeah, they might teach somebody how carrying a balance on a high interest-rate credit card is bad (how does interest rate apply here but not to mortgages?). But then they turn around and offer bogus solutions (expensive insurance, high fee funds with the same risk as no-fee funds, and worthless near-sub-prime mortgages), while Citibank inundates them with credit card offers. (Hint - use an alternate middle initial on the FNA and see how much junk mail you get with that initial on it, and from whom. It's surprising).
: : : : As for your defending every PFA in the nation, I didn't ask you to. I'm telling you to get drag your ears away from your RVP and upline, buy a textbook on personal finance, and READ. Don't skip over the hard parts. Get out a calculator, and follow along. Put in different rates on a mortgage, and see what comes out as far as monthly payments. The two are inherently intertwined. One goes up, the other must go up. Don't be like the PFA and say "I don't care how it got there, but you'll be paying less per month." Be unlike your other PFA friends and sit down with a notepad and calculator and actually add and subtract and divide and use exponents and see that ther is no magic to a PFS loan, and the same rules apply as to every other loan on the planet.
: : : : Do a web search...make some phone calls. Try to see what comparable term insurance will cost you. Just because you don't advise your clients to shop around doesn't mean you can't.
: : : : Find out the real cost of owning mutual funds. Maybe even invest in something other than what you sell. You don't have the best products on the planet, even though your RVP said so. In fact, I don't blame my PFA or even most PFA's..they are doing what they've been told, and believing the only financial education they've had. Maybe they, maybe you, passed finance, or accounting, but I bet it didn't make sense, or it seemed gloomy. Just because your RVP talks fast and assures you and tells you not to worry, doesn't mean he's above the numbers.
: : : : As for me being less educated than I think -- actually, I'm doing pretty well with my education, and taking more classes after my masters. They won't lead to a big title. They won't lead to a better job. But they're helping me understand the complexity of the world we've built around ourselves. PFS, believe it or not, doesn't let you bypass education en route to understanding.
: : : : All in all, I feel pretty good about helping people make the decision to stay away from the company that tried to screw me. And they are more educated for it. And I didn't even try to sell them anything. Imagine that.
: : :
: : : :
: : : : : Chad, I am not going to try and defend every PFA in the nation. If a pro football player for the Dallas Cowboys gets caught doing cocaine, the entire team is made up of coke addicts, by your logic. Obviously, that is inane, and so is your argument when you make it with sweeping generalizations.
: : : : : AS to the 16 year olds? I doubt it. I am not aware of any state in the union that has a minimum age below 18 in order to hold an insurance license. I believe the only exception is Puerto Rico, and I doubt that is where you were. As I said, try this for a new concept...focus on getting a life and doing some business rather than trying to run down your competition. You sound bitter as well as less educated than you assert.
: : : : : : Well that's funny as hell. My PFA, as well as the 9 others at the inducement meeting I went to (two were 16 years old), had about 2 weeks of training each, and some had their insurance license. Period. You mean to tell me that they're in a position to "make a determination" as to whether my situation warranted a computer analysis, or whether I was doing well as is?? LOL. Nah.. they assumed, and told me!, that the computer program would do that. They were told that, they are SUPPOSED to do that, and either you haven't been around enough or you're too stupid to realize that you don't plan - the computer does, and doesn't do a very good job of it, either.
: : : : : :
: : : : : : : No, Chad. Our Financial Needs Analysis assumes that the PFA has already made that determination, and if we cannot provide a solution with a mortgage for whatever reason, including if ours does not make sense for them, we would then recommend another approach, such as debt stacking, etc. If they are already investing enough money to hit their goals, we would examine their current program to see if we could offer vehicles that might give them a better overall return. If not, we would not recommend that they change their existing approach. And, sometimes we are unable to offer a better insurance program than the one they have, depending upon how long ago they purchased it, etc. In those instances, once again, we are trained to recommend that they keep what they have, unless our policy is superior due to other factors than just cost, such as protection options, longer term, etc.
: : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : So the computer program that does the FNA will sometimes just say "can't get a better mortgage from us" or "is currently investing money wisely" or "we can't offer better life insurance"?
: : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : Well, my friend, I can't speak for every PFA out there, because I didn't train each and every one of them. But, I do tell a client when they have an insurance policy which they should keep, or a better opportunity on someone else's mortgage, and so does everyone on my team.
: : : : : : : : : As for the invitation to join our company, it IS unlikely that most middle-income Americans will achieve their goals and dreams, and it is easy to document that using government statistics. Even if they DO come to work with us, a good percentage do not stick it out or work hard and so they don't make the money they need to make to bring those goals and dreams from concept to reality. Those that do, however, do VERY well and we currently have over 1,500 people making six figure incomes and a handful making seven figures.
: : : : : : : : : : Fair enough.
: : : : : : : : : : But if you "do what is right for the client 100% of the time" how come a PFA never says "hey you're better off without or mortgage/insurance/mutual funds/whatever" when that is obviously going to be the case sometimes?
: : : : : : : : : : It's always: "here's what we can do for your mortgage, here's what we can do for your investments, here's what we can do for your insurance, and by the way you'll never realize your dreams if you don't join our company"
: : : : : : : : : : Makes me suspicious
: : : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : : : Without commenting on the accuracy of your statements, if what was said was accurate your PFA did not do their job properly or even professionally. But, once again, I was not there and would not come to that conclusion without having heard the other side first. Our products are NOT for everyone. If they were, our competitors would be completely out of business, and that clearly is not the case.
: : : : : : : : : : : : That's good that you admit that some things you offer are not the best deal. I was told I was not allowed to speak with a trusted friend, family member, or advisor before signing on the dotted line. I was told that there was no reason, because "our products beat every product 100% of the time" and if I didn't believe that, then I didn't deserve further consideration.
: : : : : : : : : : : : I guess I was supposed to feel obligated because of all the time they spent with me.
: : : : : : : : : : : : The mortgage was bogus. I get better terms via bulk mail. But the real reason was, they sat across the table from me and tried to convince me that it was better than any deal I'd find anywhere.
: : : : : : : : : : : : In fact, I showed them that it was far more expensive than even my *current* loan, and even moreso over what I can (and did) get from another company.
: : : : : : : : : : : : Yes, I included PMI, fees, escrow account interest -- all the goodies. In fact, they were figured in most generously (ridiculously generously) towards PFS's favor..like "let's say I invest the escrow money in a lump sum in a SSB mutual fund with no fees, and I earn 25% per year on it". See what I mean? Ridiculous, and the disadvantages of the higher rate (it matters....) outweighed the advantages over 2 to 1.
: : : : : : : : : : : : I don't blame them, too much. They were only being good little PFA's and did what they were told, and said what they were told.
: : : : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : : : : : We could apparently argue at length on the mortgages, but without seeing what you were offered, I cannot say whether or not I think you did the right thing or not. I will say that our mortgages are NOT bogus, although they are not always the best solution for every client. Many people either conveniently or out of ignorance focus on the wrong items in mortgages. For instance, you mentioned fees. What is so often overlooked is that lenders and unknowing clients hyperfocus on what other lenders call "fees." WE focus on COSTS, or expenses. Our loans do not charge PMI, for example, even on loans up to 100% loan to value. Lenders, although they have to disclose the PMI charges, do not label those as fees and prefer to show them as part of the loan. Yet, if you add up what those actually COST a client, they nearly ALWAYS exceed the total of our fees. It is nothing more than financial legerdemain, and THAT is a scam.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : I wasn't there to see what happened on your appointment. I find it hard to believe that a PFA would say what you said they did about not letting you see the rest of the plan without your buying into the mortgage option. But, if they really did that, it may have been somewhat unreasonable on their part. However, we retain the right to deny service on a selective basis and to require a client to either take our whole package as set up in the Financial Needs Analysis or get nothing. Some clients would love to pick apart our plan and just pick and choose which of the items they want from us, and shop other parts around. We aren't always the least expensive on each individual item, and other times we are. However, we are NOT going to let someone open some $50.00 IRA when they couldn't do that anywhere else and then give their insurance business to some other company who wouldn't touch their small investment accounts. There must be give and take and the business has to make sense for BOTH parties, or it isn't good business.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : I told them I didn't like the mortgage terms, but would like to see the whole package, since they told me it was either the whole package, or nothing. So I said, "Let me see the whole package" and they said "not if you don't believe that our mortgage product is the best out there."
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : What if I accepted the mortgage terms, then saw the insurance, and said I didn't want it? Would they not allow me to close on the mortgage?
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : If it's a package deal, show me the whole thing and let me decide. Otherwise, let me pick and choose which ones I want. Especially when I proved that the loan terms were bogus. I've also proved it to the apparent satisfaction of 5 different PFAs on three separate msg boards. It's not rocket science, but it takes some common sense, a course not offered at PFSU.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : You must not have wanted ANYTHING from them except to get our info and then try to shop us around with people who only sell products and give no personal service or coaching. Our FNA is complimentary to CUSTOMERS, not people who just want to take advantage of us.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : As far as the FNA being free:
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : When I said I didn't want the mortgage, the FNA was removed from my hands and I was not allowed to see the rest of it. That's hardly "free".
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : You are less intelligent than I even credited you with initially. What you must have missed in your stint was that we help people not just with an insurance policy. We help them start a program of savings/investment with their premium differences and provide them with a PLAN to reach a comfortable retirement. With PFS, they get a FINANCIAL COACH, as well as the Financial Needs Analysis, both of which are FREE, along with their insurance or any other products we offer. You hawk some policy and send them a thank you letter...with no help to reach their goals and dreams at all. If you do give them more, you want to charge them for it.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On the mortgages, you argument is a total washout. Pre-scheduled loans are a rip-off, plain and simple. Your concern about fees is bullshit, too. You people NEVER want to call PMI a fee, and yet it IS an EXPENSE. If you add the cost of PMI into your loan, which you HAVE to do to sell it on anything with a loan to value ration of greater than 80%, that COST outweighs the TOTAL of our fees nearly every time. WE DON'T CHARGE PMI, EVEN ON LOANS OF UP TO 100%. But, you con artists like to play the shell game and point clients to FEES that do not include all of the COSTS. You are truly a jackass, and I say that in the kindest possible way. NOT.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Citifinancial doesn't even do simple interest loans, you sufferer of brain death. They only do first mortgages. Our simple interest loans are done by Traveler's Bank & Trust, which is one of the most respected lending institutions around. You say you never read any articles on the loan products? Perhaps you should get off the internet for more than 3 minutes a day and try reading some of the periodicals out there. Try Forbes, for instance, who JUST ranked Citigroup as the number ONE company on the planet...for the second year running. Yeah, we did that by selling bad products to people and misrepresenting our goals. You are a loser, and a sore one at that. Give it up, get a life, get off the internet and try doing some business....it beats the hell out of collecting those unemployment checks. I have customers to serve.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : What determines overpriced? Gee, let's see, if I can go almost anywhere else and get term insurance EXACTLY like Primerica's & pay up to 50% less premium, I think most people would agree that Primerica is overpriced!
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : As far as mortgages go, PFS has successfully taught their reps to believe that interest rate doesn't matter! I have YET to find ANY Primerica loan product that I couldn't do as good or better with one of the lenders that I write for, EVEN at scheduled interest. Your high front loads & outrageous interest rate MORE THAN offset ANY advantage you can offer them with simple interest!
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : What "favorable write-ups". In my six years with Primerica, I never saw ANY write-ups on the loan product Primerica offers through it's lenders. To the contrary, the lenders PFS uses, Citifinancial/The Associates, is under investigation by the FTC for predatory lending practices. Yip, that sounds REAL favorable!
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Funny, I've never seen YOUR name or opinon in any of those magazines either.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Overpriced? What determines overpriced? Anything that YOU cannot afford, perhaps? I would tend to say that it is NOT overpriced or NO ONE would be buying it. Somehow, though, Primerica has become the number one issuer of term insurance in the world. Guess they didn't bother to ask YOUR opinion of their pricing. Frankly, I am not interested in your opinion on anything, because I am convinced that you are a dolt.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : As far as mortgages go, that industry has successfully brainwashed the public into looking at only rate and payment, a feat of financial legerdemain that has bilked the public out of TRILLIONS of dollars. Why would anyone pay more interest expense, and pay it longer, if that were not true? Because that is exactly what happens with a pre-scheduled interest loan. We only write SIMPLE interest mortgages, and they have been given VERY favorable write ups by a number of respected publications. Funny, I never saw your name or opinon in any of those magazines. Wonder if they think that is because is is irrelevant????
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : How is selling over priced term insurance & high interest, fee laden mortgages having a "sincere regard for the client's best interest, and integrity"
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : If that was truly the case, wouldn't you be referring your clients to someone who could provide them with competitively priced insurance?
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Referring them to someone who would give them a competitive rate on their mortgage, with no upfront fees & no pre-payment penalties?
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : So, since you have "sincere regard for the client's best interest, and integrity", please tell all of us how an over priced term product and high interest, fee laden mortgages is in the best interest of the client!
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Believe is spelled with the i before the e. Perhaps they didn't mention that as you were collecting diplomas. I feel compelled to point out that I have never attacked or questioned your competence, or that of any other financial services professional. You are the one that seems bent on attacking Primerica reps, possibly because they represent strong competition. If they did not, you would not attack their credibility with such cavalier arrogance.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I acknowledge that it takes additional commitment to add the various professional credentials to one's personal repertoire. I already hold a real estate broker's license. Anyone who can breathe steam on a mirror can get one, too. I also held a CRS designation...(Certified Residential Specialist). Know what that took? About 8 weekends of course work and a small test at the end. Big deal. Did that really make me a better real estate broker? Not really, but I suppose some people feel that those with fewer credentials should have dropped down and their knees, extended their arms, and done the "We are not worthy" wave to me. Bullshit. If you are a good financial planner, people will discover that. When I owned a RE/MAX agency, I used to exhort my agents to point out that our largest competitor, Century 21, was in the routinely hired part-time agents. I told them to point out to our potential customers that having a part-time brain surgeon made no sense, and neither did having a part time Realtor. The fact was, though, that some of those C-21 people were as competent and talented as some of our agents, and sometimes they nearly outsold some of my full time people.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I learned a valuable lesson from that, and so should you. I don't worry about the "credentials" of competitors anymore. I look for people with commitment, sincere regard for the client's best interest, and integrity. We are kicking butt out there, and it is pretty rewarding to watch it happen. I'm sure you'll get your share of clients also, unless you spend the bulk of your time posting disparaging remarks about a company you know little about and about over 100,000 PFS reps you have never even met.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : For someone who asserts that he is a PROFESSIONAL, you should be more cautious not to misrepresent so much. PFS has some part time people, but they passed not one but two criminal background checks, as well as a minimum of three State required examinations to get their licenses. If the issuing state believes that to be sufficient to work with clients, I do not believe that someone else is necessarily better qualified because he has some ridiculous acronym after his/her name...because ANYONE can get that and it does NOT make you more honest, sincere, or dedicated to look out for the client.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : By the way, I have been full time with PFS for years, and I think I am every bit as qualified as you are to represent clients and serve their needs. You should be more careful before you spout sweeping generalizations and take heroic leaps in logic.