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In Reply to: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ripped off posted by Mislead by PFS on August 27, 2001 at 21:05:39:
: I know there is no policy stating it is an all or nothing deal. What I was stating is that many PFSers use this technique, as they did to Chris. As I stated, this is AGAINST your companies policies, but still MANY PFSers do it! Pay attention!
There are many of your brethren who have had licenses revoked, jail terms assigned, and worse due to dishonest dealings. NO firm is completely able to control all of its people 24 hours a day, which should be obvious. By the way, for about the 100th time, which firm do YOU work for again? Why do I get the distinct impression you are fearful of revealing that??????
: You need to stop posting without proof! I deal with MANY clients that PFS would typically call an "ideal client" as I write loans from A to D credit. The difference is I can give them competitive rates, lower premiums & better products and service!
Easy to assert, but difficult to prove. I am not looking at our offerings directly next to yours, but believe me, I would go up against you with any client IN OUR MARKET on ANY DAY. In fact, I pray that happens one day.
: 1 - How is a pre-payment penalty, high interest rate and a front loaded beneficial to a client at ANY time?
Easy. If you were really intelligent, you would not even have to ask this question. Here, then, is some remedial finance information for you. I'll use credit cards as an example, since you seem to think RATE is so paramount in importance. (By the way, lest anyone forget, I have NEVER argued rate is irrelevant...it is just not one of the MOST important considerations). And, by the way, you fool, the last three mortgages I have sold were in the 7-7.5% range. I would hardly call that usurious, and neither did the clients...who had shopped our mortgages HARD out there. I can easily demonstrate that a Discover card with a 17% rate, even with its vaunted 1% cash back, is often FAR more expensive to hold than a standard VISA card with as high a rate as 24%. Why? Because Discover uses a two-month billing cycle, and depending upon a consumer's bill paying habits, it can result in the cardholder paying nearly TWICE that 17% rate, because of (and here is where you really need to go back to school) the WAY THE INTEREST IS ASSESSED. RATE, IN THAT SCENARIO, IS OF LITTLE CONSEQUENCE. IT IS THE WAY THEY BILL THE INTEREST THAT RESULTS IN THE DAMAGE. People do not pay their bills, or their mortgages, with RATE, my friend, they pay with DOLLARS. You and your co-horts have been resolute and frighteningly successful brainwashing people into buying that nonsense. If you would climb down off of your "white steed" and look around you, you would realize that YOUR types have locked most of America in a deathgrip of debt, and YOU are not making things any better out there singing your swan song. As to pre-payment penalties, there is nothing great about those...but they are a fact of life in some mortgages. However, I would never recommend one of our instruments to anyone that anticipated that there would be a fairly strong likelihood that they would be selling their home in the three years that clause applies.
SIMPLE interest loans apply pre-payments of principal differently. Our loans do not offer a real competitive edge in many cases UNLESS the client accelerates the loan with an extra $50-$100 a month. Do that with a standard, pre-calculated interest loan and we'll still blow them away every time because the pre-calc loans do NOT give immediate credit to pre-payments of principal...and the difference is in the tens of thousands. Explain THAT to your client who you told got a better deal because you shaved a half point off of the interest rate!!!
: 2 - How is overpriced term insurance right for the client at ANY time?
Overpriced is a relative term. Products that do not strip out benefits are typically more expensive, but they are not bare-bones policies with few other benefits. I would stack the benefits of a Primerica policy against anyone elses, and although we might not win 100% of the time, we do so often enough to still be the number one issuer of term insurance in the world. What are you going to tell me now, that all of those people who bought are insurance are idiots? That they SHOULD have come to YOU???? Yeah, right. They're morons, and you are a genius. I don't think more than a handful are going to buy your baloney.
: You have stated that your products are not the proper solution for some clients. That is a step in the right direction, but how are these 2 products right at ANY time.
I don't have to post proof of anything to you, nor will I take the time. Apparently, you have no clientele or you would not be on here arguing with me. I prove it to my clients regularly, and since I have some to service today, will not be on here like you arguing with someone else who is out doing business. As I said before, we choose to let the customers decide, not spend our time arguing with competitors. I'm not afraid to face people like you in the field, but I don't have the time to foolishly play on the net all day.
: : There is NO policy regarding who we choose to do business with, and under what circumstances we choose to do it. For instance, if we recommend an insurance package, a consolidation loan, and a small start up ROTH, and the client decides all they want is the ROTH, we DO NOT have to write the investment business. What are you, stupid? Besides, I thought you had clients. Go service them and quit worrying about a company that you claim isn't a blip on your radar screen. Apparently they are, or you wouldn't be so intent on bashing them. And, I would never assert that our loans are ALWAYS better than standard loans, but they are sometimes...although probably not on A+ credit clients with little or no debt. You haven't probably worked with clients where our loans would be the most helpful, so why run your bullshit claims and further expose yourself as a know-it-all wannabe???
: : : Once again, your mortgage spew is total crap! Show some proof of what you are posting. Like I said, I've yet to see a PFS loan that I couldn't beat even WITH scheduled interest!
: : : Get real, not showing the whole package is SOP for PFSers. I attended many meetings where that was taught not only by my RVP, but also my NSD & SNSD. This goes on ALL the time. It is also against your Primerica's policies to use the "all or nothing" technique in your presentation!
: : : Bet you didn't know that either, huh?!
: : : : We could apparently argue at length on the mortgages, but without seeing what you were offered, I cannot say whether or not I think you did the right thing or not. I will say that our mortgages are NOT bogus, although they are not always the best solution for every client. Many people either conveniently or out of ignorance focus on the wrong items in mortgages. For instance, you mentioned fees. What is so often overlooked is that lenders and unknowing clients hyperfocus on what other lenders call "fees." WE focus on COSTS, or expenses. Our loans do not charge PMI, for example, even on loans up to 100% loan to value. Lenders, although they have to disclose the PMI charges, do not label those as fees and prefer to show them as part of the loan. Yet, if you add up what those actually COST a client, they nearly ALWAYS exceed the total of our fees. It is nothing more than financial legerdemain, and THAT is a scam.
: : : : I wasn't there to see what happened on your appointment. I find it hard to believe that a PFA would say what you said they did about not letting you see the rest of the plan without your buying into the mortgage option. But, if they really did that, it may have been somewhat unreasonable on their part. However, we retain the right to deny service on a selective basis and to require a client to either take our whole package as set up in the Financial Needs Analysis or get nothing. Some clients would love to pick apart our plan and just pick and choose which of the items they want from us, and shop other parts around. We aren't always the least expensive on each individual item, and other times we are. However, we are NOT going to let someone open some $50.00 IRA when they couldn't do that anywhere else and then give their insurance business to some other company who wouldn't touch their small investment accounts. There must be give and take and the business has to make sense for BOTH parties, or it isn't good business.
: : : : : I told them I didn't like the mortgage terms, but would like to see the whole package, since they told me it was either the whole package, or nothing. So I said, "Let me see the whole package" and they said "not if you don't believe that our mortgage product is the best out there."
: : : : : What if I accepted the mortgage terms, then saw the insurance, and said I didn't want it? Would they not allow me to close on the mortgage?
: : : : : If it's a package deal, show me the whole thing and let me decide. Otherwise, let me pick and choose which ones I want. Especially when I proved that the loan terms were bogus. I've also proved it to the apparent satisfaction of 5 different PFAs on three separate msg boards. It's not rocket science, but it takes some common sense, a course not offered at PFSU.
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: : : : : : You must not have wanted ANYTHING from them except to get our info and then try to shop us around with people who only sell products and give no personal service or coaching. Our FNA is complimentary to CUSTOMERS, not people who just want to take advantage of us.
: : : : : : : As far as the FNA being free:
: : : : : : : When I said I didn't want the mortgage, the FNA was removed from my hands and I was not allowed to see the rest of it. That's hardly "free".
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: : : : : : : : You are less intelligent than I even credited you with initially. What you must have missed in your stint was that we help people not just with an insurance policy. We help them start a program of savings/investment with their premium differences and provide them with a PLAN to reach a comfortable retirement. With PFS, they get a FINANCIAL COACH, as well as the Financial Needs Analysis, both of which are FREE, along with their insurance or any other products we offer. You hawk some policy and send them a thank you letter...with no help to reach their goals and dreams at all. If you do give them more, you want to charge them for it.
: : : : : : : : On the mortgages, you argument is a total washout. Pre-scheduled loans are a rip-off, plain and simple. Your concern about fees is bullshit, too. You people NEVER want to call PMI a fee, and yet it IS an EXPENSE. If you add the cost of PMI into your loan, which you HAVE to do to sell it on anything with a loan to value ration of greater than 80%, that COST outweighs the TOTAL of our fees nearly every time. WE DON'T CHARGE PMI, EVEN ON LOANS OF UP TO 100%. But, you con artists like to play the shell game and point clients to FEES that do not include all of the COSTS. You are truly a jackass, and I say that in the kindest possible way. NOT.
: : : : : : : : Citifinancial doesn't even do simple interest loans, you sufferer of brain death. They only do first mortgages. Our simple interest loans are done by Traveler's Bank & Trust, which is one of the most respected lending institutions around. You say you never read any articles on the loan products? Perhaps you should get off the internet for more than 3 minutes a day and try reading some of the periodicals out there. Try Forbes, for instance, who JUST ranked Citigroup as the number ONE company on the planet...for the second year running. Yeah, we did that by selling bad products to people and misrepresenting our goals. You are a loser, and a sore one at that. Give it up, get a life, get off the internet and try doing some business....it beats the hell out of collecting those unemployment checks. I have customers to serve.
: : : : : : : : : What determines overpriced? Gee, let's see, if I can go almost anywhere else and get term insurance EXACTLY like Primerica's & pay up to 50% less premium, I think most people would agree that Primerica is overpriced!
: : : : : : : : : As far as mortgages go, PFS has successfully taught their reps to believe that interest rate doesn't matter! I have YET to find ANY Primerica loan product that I couldn't do as good or better with one of the lenders that I write for, EVEN at scheduled interest. Your high front loads & outrageous interest rate MORE THAN offset ANY advantage you can offer them with simple interest!
: : : : : : : : : What "favorable write-ups". In my six years with Primerica, I never saw ANY write-ups on the loan product Primerica offers through it's lenders. To the contrary, the lenders PFS uses, Citifinancial/The Associates, is under investigation by the FTC for predatory lending practices. Yip, that sounds REAL favorable!
: : : : : : : : : Funny, I've never seen YOUR name or opinon in any of those magazines either.
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: : : : : : : : : : Overpriced? What determines overpriced? Anything that YOU cannot afford, perhaps? I would tend to say that it is NOT overpriced or NO ONE would be buying it. Somehow, though, Primerica has become the number one issuer of term insurance in the world. Guess they didn't bother to ask YOUR opinion of their pricing. Frankly, I am not interested in your opinion on anything, because I am convinced that you are a dolt.
: : : : : : : : : : As far as mortgages go, that industry has successfully brainwashed the public into looking at only rate and payment, a feat of financial legerdemain that has bilked the public out of TRILLIONS of dollars. Why would anyone pay more interest expense, and pay it longer, if that were not true? Because that is exactly what happens with a pre-scheduled interest loan. We only write SIMPLE interest mortgages, and they have been given VERY favorable write ups by a number of respected publications. Funny, I never saw your name or opinon in any of those magazines. Wonder if they think that is because is is irrelevant????
: : : : : : : : : : : How is selling over priced term insurance & high interest, fee laden mortgages having a "sincere regard for the client's best interest, and integrity"
: : : : : : : : : : : If that was truly the case, wouldn't you be referring your clients to someone who could provide them with competitively priced insurance?
: : : : : : : : : : : Referring them to someone who would give them a competitive rate on their mortgage, with no upfront fees & no pre-payment penalties?
: : : : : : : : : : : So, since you have "sincere regard for the client's best interest, and integrity", please tell all of us how an over priced term product and high interest, fee laden mortgages is in the best interest of the client!
: : : : : : : : : : : : Believe is spelled with the i before the e. Perhaps they didn't mention that as you were collecting diplomas. I feel compelled to point out that I have never attacked or questioned your competence, or that of any other financial services professional. You are the one that seems bent on attacking Primerica reps, possibly because they represent strong competition. If they did not, you would not attack their credibility with such cavalier arrogance.
: : : : : : : : : : : : I acknowledge that it takes additional commitment to add the various professional credentials to one's personal repertoire. I already hold a real estate broker's license. Anyone who can breathe steam on a mirror can get one, too. I also held a CRS designation...(Certified Residential Specialist). Know what that took? About 8 weekends of course work and a small test at the end. Big deal. Did that really make me a better real estate broker? Not really, but I suppose some people feel that those with fewer credentials should have dropped down and their knees, extended their arms, and done the "We are not worthy" wave to me. Bullshit. If you are a good financial planner, people will discover that. When I owned a RE/MAX agency, I used to exhort my agents to point out that our largest competitor, Century 21, was in the routinely hired part-time agents. I told them to point out to our potential customers that having a part-time brain surgeon made no sense, and neither did having a part time Realtor. The fact was, though, that some of those C-21 people were as competent and talented as some of our agents, and sometimes they nearly outsold some of my full time people.
: : : : : : : : : : : : I learned a valuable lesson from that, and so should you. I don't worry about the "credentials" of competitors anymore. I look for people with commitment, sincere regard for the client's best interest, and integrity. We are kicking butt out there, and it is pretty rewarding to watch it happen. I'm sure you'll get your share of clients also, unless you spend the bulk of your time posting disparaging remarks about a company you know little about and about over 100,000 PFS reps you have never even met.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : For someone who asserts that he is a PROFESSIONAL, you should be more cautious not to misrepresent so much. PFS has some part time people, but they passed not one but two criminal background checks, as well as a minimum of three State required examinations to get their licenses. If the issuing state believes that to be sufficient to work with clients, I do not believe that someone else is necessarily better qualified because he has some ridiculous acronym after his/her name...because ANYONE can get that and it does NOT make you more honest, sincere, or dedicated to look out for the client.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : By the way, I have been full time with PFS for years, and I think I am every bit as qualified as you are to represent clients and serve their needs. You should be more careful before you spout sweeping generalizations and take heroic leaps in logic.